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Understanding God's Holy Spirit  

 

Aaron’s question-

How Does Judaism and Islam Understand God’s Holy Spirit?

 

From Peregrin 4-26 #2

Someone correct me if I am wrong, however I believe this sums it up:

Judaism sees the "Spirit of the Lord" as the indwelling spirit of God, and not as one of three "persons" of the Trinity as Christians do.

In Islam (I think) the "Holy Spirit" is a euthenism for an angel, probably Gabriel.

 

From Ray 4-27 #3

Dear Aaron,

In Islam the Holy Spirit is in fact believed to be the angel Gabriel. Something I do not understand since in the Quran it is stated that Jesus was blown into the womb of the Virgin Mary from Gods Spirit. Then their is mention of Holy Spirit as another entity.

The Holy Spirit can not be an angel since angels are messengers whereas the Holy Spirit is God.

Ray

 

From Penpal #4

Angels are not Holy Spirit in Islam

Quran

17:85
They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you,
(O men!)"

5:110
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit,

2:253
Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave Clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

 

From Penpal 4-28 #8

Here is how Spirit of Allah work

[5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

Holy Spirit = Allah's Power

 

From Isk #9

"Judaism sees the "Spirit of the Lord" as the indwelling spirit of God, and not as one of three "persons" of the Trinity as Christians do."

I, as a Christian, would not seek to make any contrast such as this. The Spirit in the 'Trinity' is not anything different from "the indwelling spirit of God". I would not understand the 'Trinity' in a different way than this. Trinity is not a view of different Gods, but of 'One God, in three persons' - indwelling each other. Maybe in Judaism, prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit was not well known. It fell on only a few prophets, the 70 elders under Moses, Saul in his election as King, &c. However, in the Way, the Spirit filled all believers, from the Pentecost of Acts ch.2 onwards.

 

From Abrahamite (A Jewess) 4-   #11

In Judaism, the Holy Spirit is known as Shechina (the Divine Presence, also referred to as the Indwelling Presence). Remember the "cloud" over the tabernacle in the Sinai? That was Schechina. It is the presence of the Holy One in a place, person (or group of people), or period of time. It comes to dwell there because of the precepts associated with that place, person, or period of time. Wherever the Shechina rests, there is an enhanced ability to experience the Divine.

Since Hebrew has no neuter it form, nouns and pronouns are either masculine or feminine. Schechina is a feminine form. It is important to place this interesting fact in the context that Jewishly the Holy One is beyond divisions, including the masculine and feminine. Also, although the Indwelling Presence is all Divine, it is not the totality of and thus not identical to the One whom we call HaShem (the Name).

In summary, the Holy Spirit Jewishly can be thought of as a state/force completely imbued with the Hod (Glory) of HaShem. This force is always unfailingly with/amongst us come what may - Vayikra (Leviticus) 16:16 - "Who dwells with them in the midst of their 'tumah' (unsuitability and hence impurity)" - be it only as a spark deep within the soul. However, when externally actualized, the Schechina is said to also reside upon us. On this level, visible to all, HaShem's Hod and Chesed (Lovingkindness) are also revealed. In this state humanity is brought into a plane of existence characterized by a palpable sense of nearness with the Holy One.

Abrahamite

 

From Isk 4-29 #13

"In Judaism, the Holy Spirit is known as Shechina (the Divine Presence, also referred to as the Indwelling Presence). ....Wherever the Shechina rests, there is an enhanced ability to experience the Divine.

.... Jewishly the Holy One is beyond divisions, ..... although the Indwelling Presence is all Divine, it is not the totality of and thus not identical to the One whom we call HaShem (the Name).

... the Holy Spirit Jewishly can be thought of as a state/force completely imbued with the Hod (Glory) of HaShem. This force is always unfailingly with/amongst us come what may - Vayikra (Leviticus) 16:16 - "Who dwells with them in the midst of their 'tumah' (unsuitability and hence impurity)" - be it only as a spark deep within the soul. However, when externally actualized, the Schechina is said to also reside upon us. ....In this state humanity is brought into a plane of existence characterized by a palpable sense of nearness with the Holy One..."

Very interesting, and well expressed.

Furthermore, in "...although the Indwelling Presence is all Divine, it is not the totality of and thus not identical to the One whom we call HaShem..." and "... the Holy Spirit Jewishly can be thought of as a state/force completely imbued with the Hod (Glory) of HaShem", I see very little distinction with the Christian understanding. "..the Indwelling Presence is ...not the totality of HaShem", implies a complexity in the nature of The Name, which is of course the essence of the Christian understanding of 'Trinity'.

 

 

 

From Abrahamite 4-30 #14

Dear Isk,

I have found that at the deepest levels of understanding, when hearts and minds are open, are open and not defensive, a common ground can always be reached. And we can even come to recognize and embrace in awe and wonder the reality that each faith must naturally also move between that place of commonality and their own distinct understanding and spiritual effort in order for combined harmony to grow. For the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

This is the high ground in the flood of religious competitiveness, oneupmanship and attempts to dispossess other faiths - and it is from this undivided place alone that the dove can carry the olive branch. Knowing this, and then seeing how even at some very prominent levels, so-called religiously enlightened leadership persists in exclusivist strategies and divisive tactics, is very disappointing and saddening. We must expose these lies and hold these people accountable for them - and demand that they adjust their methods to reflect the great truth opposite which there is no falsehood but only another truth.

Abrahamite

.

From Corneila 4-30 #15

Christianity believes in the trinity, God The Father, God The Son , and God
The Holy Spirit, all one and the same.

 

From Isk #16

Christian statements of Trinity made in 3rd century CE were made in response to particular controversies, notably, the Arian controversy. It was about defining the nature of the relationship between Jesus and God, and reconciling Jesus' divine and human natures. We must not think that the particular expressions used in the context of these 3rd century controversies are necessarily as useful in every subsequent circumstance. We have to recognise the time and place in which those staements were made. We can't keep ourselves in a time warp of 1700 years ago.

I was very happy to read Abrahamite's expression of Jewish understanding of Holy Spirit. Of course the early Christians were Jews, and would certainly have understood Holy Spirit in the same way that Abrahamite expressed it. It's good, from a Christian standpoint, to get back to the first century roots, even the Jewish roots, of the faith.

There were certain fundamentals on which the early church and the Jews did not differ. It was only later that some divergences caused too much tension between the Synagogue and the church. But still, that was the experience of those times, and why do we have to remain fixed in that mould? We should look at things from the perspective of our own times, what is necessary for today.....

It's just some thoughts.

And I appreciate your thoughts in No. 14 above, Abrahmite. I could say amen to that.

 

 

From Aaron 5-1 #17

To my dear friends,

You cannot imagine how refreshing I found your responses to my question concerning God’s Holy Spirit. I think that what I see in these responses, is conformation for the positive commonality that we all have within the Abrahamic Covenant. If you would allow me this liberty, I would conclude that the understandings of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam concerning God’s Holy Spirit are practically the same. Yes, I too believe that the Holy Spirit of God is the Power of God. Thus, the Holy Spirit would seem to be the essence or power of God that works for Him, His will in the world. This is the same Spirit that God describes for us in Zech.4:6—where things are accomplished "not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says Jehovah of Hosts."

Thanks again and God bless.

Psalm 51: "10Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from your presence; And take not your Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of your salvation; And uphold me with a willing spirit. 13Then will I teach transgressors your ways; And sinners shall be converted unto you." Amen.

Aaron

 

From Rick 5-2 #18

Abrahamite, Isk, and Aaron,

I don't want to interject a thorn of contention into this otherwise beautiful display of harmony between Judaism and Christianity, but I don't think that Christians would refer to the Holy Spirit as a "force" the way Jews and perhaps Muslims would. For us, the Holy Spirit is a person. In other words, it is possible for us to address the Holy Spirit distinctly and separately from an address to the Father or the Son. I doubt that Jews or Muslims would view the Holy Spirit in this way.

Our points of commonality may be in the Christian idea of the work of the Holy Spirit and the Muslim/Jewish idea of what God does as a spirit.

Rick

 

From Isk #19

Rick,

Yes, while Christians believe the Spirit to be a person, he is still a 'force' - a part of God that acts in the world in a specific way; thus he is a 'personal force'. Does that reconcile the ideas?

Furthermore, for me, I see no teaching or example in the scriptures (either OT or NT), for addressing the Spirit directly. Prayers were always directed to the Father, or to the Son, not to the Spirit. I know that some mystics have claimed a specific relationship with Holy Spirit as a person, but I feel that that would be a rare exception. The explanation would lie in the character of the Spirit himself, he always remains very humble, he takes what belongs to the Son, or to the Father, and brings it to us; he takes what is deep in our hearts, and communicates it to the Father and to the Son. He is the Helper, the Comforter, the Interceder. The Spirit does not bring anything of His own, he takes a very humble, serving role. That's only my understanding; as far as it may be of use to you......

 

From Lewieke 5-3 #20

"It's good, from a Christian standpoint, to get back to the first century roots, even the Jewish roots, of the faith. [...]

We should look at things from the perspective of our own times, what is necessary for today.....

It's just some thoughts."

Isk, I completely agree with you.

 

From Peregrin #21

I have to wonder how much of this "Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity" isn't really just 2nd & 3rd century Christian semantics getting in the way. The Holy Spirit isn't discussed as a "person" in the NT that I can think of. I believe Christians and Jews might at least agree the Holy Spirit & the Spirit of the Lord possess similar "indwelling" qualities for both faiths. Christians read about the Spirit of the Lord in the Tenach and take it as one and the same as the Holy Spirit of the NT.

Then as to the concept of the Holy Spirit in Islam - if we take this as the power of Allah - then Islam's Holy Spirit probably really isn't that far removed, either.

 

From Rick 5-4 #22

Isk wrote, "Yes, while Christians believe the Spirit to be a person, he is still a 'force' - a part of God that acts in the world in a specific way; thus he is a 'personal force'. Does that reconcile the ideas?"

Kind of. I understand what you are saying, but the day that I read these posts I also read this from Bishop Kallistos Ware: "The Holy Spirit is a person. He is not just a 'divine blast,' not just an insentient force, but one of the three eternal persons of the Trinity; and so, for all his seeming elusiveness, we can and do enter into a personal 'I-Thou' relationship with him." This is what I meant by saying that he can be addressed. While dependent and of the same divine essence, He is distinct from the Father and the Son.

Your description of the function of the Holy Spirit is helpful. The NT speaks of the Spirit proceeding from the Father and sent by the Son. He glorifies the Son, was the agent of the Son taking a human body, and commissioned the Son at his baptism. All of these things imply a distinct personhood for the Holy Spirit. By personhood I mean that he posesses self-conciousness and self-determination distinct from the Father and the Son.

Peregrin wrote, "I have to wonder how much of this "Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity" isn't really just 2nd & 3rd century Christian semantics getting in the way. The Holy Spirit isn't discussed as a "person" in the NT that I can think of."

I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't refer to it as "getting in the way." I also think that it is much more than just semantics. The Christian councils were declaring explicitly what the church had always understood intuitively. It is true that the Bible doesn't speak of the Holy Spirit in terms of his personhood or essence the way the councils did. Those were Greek modes of thinking. However, the NT is clearly Trinitarian at the intuitive level (see examples above). The councils were forced to be explicit because of the rise of a number of heresies that threatened the very heart of Christianity. In regards to the Holy Spirit, they felt that to deny his personhood would have a domino effect on many other doctrines including the Christian doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of the church. Triune monotheism, whether explicit or implicit, is absolutely essential to Christianity. This is why even today the three major branches of Christianity - Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant - declare that those who deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit are heretics.

Rick

 

From Aaron #23

Greetings to all

Peace

I appreciate everyone's interest, and that you can also, in a limited sense, appreciate the commonality within our three religions concerning the Creator God and God’s Holy Spirit.

But with respect to the additional explanations that we might offer from time to time, I believe that some Scriptural basis for our thoughts might be helpful to everyone in advancing our understanding.

I am going to make a little jump here, and I hope that this jump is not into a hornet’s nest. I mean no offense with my commentary—these are just some of my thought on this subject that I wanted to share.

I once asked an elderly pastor this question—Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be saved? He did not give me an answer. The primary reason for my question came from the numerous times that I had heard sermons preached on the Trinity. And it seemed that each and every time—I believe without exception, the minister who was preaching the sermon would end their sermons by saying—Because of its complexity, they did not believe that anyone could fully understand or explain the holy Trinity. This conclusion, I believe, was the result of a lack of absolute Biblical proof for the Holy Trinity as such. The Bible just does not explain the Holy Trinity in clear and simple language that we can understand. But it is an understanding that transcends the human mind—Mysteriously hidden in God.

So here is only my opinion—If we are dealing with this complex invisible Creator God, whose ways and being are so very far above us—even past finding out. Why would we ever want to condemn someone for not believing in the specific details that we can neither accurately explain nor understand? I do not believe that the Bible ever makes the Holy Trinity a prerequisite to one’s Salvation.

Nevertheless, I believe that the Christian Church is fully entitled to believe in what they believe in, without any criticism from Judaism or Islam: The same accord to which they are also entitled.

Of course our traditions are a very important part of our faith, but when traditions become divisive??? Simply because traditions often differ in many instances. These Christian traditions that we are talking about, specifically the Holy Trinity, are principally based on the Christian understanding for that time in history. So are we just to assume that their understanding in that time in history was perfectly complete? This is not intended as a challenge to the certain reality of the Holy Trinity, but just to examine some of the early traditions.

I certainly would not want to sound like a heretic, but I can Scripturally tell you that they did not perfectly understand all of the intricate details of God’s universal reconciliation. And their failure here, I believe, was the result of a deficiency in their eschatological understandings. I am sure that you have heard the saying—the d…l is in the details. They had never arrived at a proper understanding of exactly who the peoples of God are.

Finally, I would ask you this—are we to just follow along without the right to ask a question? If that were the case, there could be no advancement at all in our theological knowledge.

Thanks again, and God Bless

Aaron

 

From Rick 5-4 #24

Good morning, Aaron.

I would agree with you that we can't understand the Trinity. There is nothing triune in the natural creation that we can compare with the Trinity, so it really is beyond our ability to comprehend.

I also don't believe that it is necessary to have a formal doctrine of the Trinity to be a fully functioning Christian. For the first few centuries of Christianity, there was no formal doctrine of the Trinity. However, as I said, I think they did understand it intuitively. So many other vital Christian doctrines can only be understood within a Trinitarian framework that to throw out the Trinity you have to get rid of much of what is unique to Christianity. It is not the doctrine of the Trinity or any other doctrine that saves us. It is God who does that. The doctrine of the Trinity gives us (Christians) some insight and understanding into how that happens. For us, the end result is a greater and deeper worship of God, and a keener insight into what it means to be the people of God in the world.

Personally, I believe that the Trinity is a reality and not just "one way of explaining God."

Kalo Pascha,

Rick

 

From Mohamed 5-6 #25

Salam, Peace, Shalom!

The Holy Spirit in Islam is Angel Gabriel. This is the interpretation hold be the vast majority of Muslim scholars. A very few scholars however would say it is the New Testament/Enjeel. An even fewer scholars say it is the Holy Name of God with which Jesus could make his miracles.

Best wishes,

Mohamed Mosaad

 

From Cornelia #26

Some Holy Bible Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit (New International Version):

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Acts 1:5
For John baptized with[ 1:5 Or in] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

From Isk 5-7 #27

'The Holy Spirit in Islam is Angel Gabriel'

In contrast, Christians see angels as quite distinct created beings, and Holy Spirit as one person of the Godhead (uncreated and eternal).

"—Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be saved?" However, If you are 'saved' likely you will not fail to beleive in the trinitarian nature of God, it will become a part of your experience, and encounter with God, and with scripture.

"a lack of absolute Biblical proof for the Holy Trinity as such." Nonsense; the Bible is full of it. Jesus is shown as God, the Spirit is shown as God, and the Father is shown as God, the Spirit is mentioned as being of the fathe and of the Son; Jesus says he is the same as the Father..... just follow the logic.

 

From Aasim #28

I think, perhaps, we are trying to compare two different aspects of theology.

1) The Holy Spirit as defined in Christian theology: a person of the Trinity, seperate unto itself, and yet fully part of the godhead.

2) The Holy Spirit as defined in Islam: the Angel Gabriel, also referenced in the Quran as the True Spirit, Honest Spirit, or the Spirit. (Please refer to Dr. Mosaad's post)

Islam does not attribute any personification whatsoever towards God. Essentially, there is the created and the uncreated; there is Allah(swt) and there is everything else. Allah(swt) may choose to interact with creation anyway He deems fit. Afterall, He is the Creator of time, space, matter and life. As the Creator, Allah(swt) is seperate from creation: timeless, ageless, tireless.

It is accounted througout Scripture that God has interacted with the world and spoken to the Prophets by the agent of the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this would be Gabriel.

Gabriel came to Abraham(pbuh). Gabriel came to Mary(as). Gabriel came to Jesus(pbuh). Gabriel came to Muhammad(saw). Even Moses(pbuh), who perhaps came closest to the presence of Allah(swt), fainted in His presence, overwhelmed by the power and majesty of God. But none of us, according to Islam, have looked upon the face of God nor have we experienced His complete presence.

Through Gabriel, Allah(swt) has given Revelation and support to the Prophets to assist them in their cause.

in faith,

Aasim

 

From Aaron 5-7 #29

Hello Isk

Peace

I never said that there was not Biblical proof for the Father, or for the Son, or for the Holy Spirit. What I said, was that there was not the absolute proof--Like the Bible does not precisely explain the Christian understanding of the Holy Trinity in so many words. Logically, it is an accepted fact in the Christian tradition.

Aaron

 

From Rick #30

Aasim or any other Muslim,

In Christianity, "personhood" is defined as self-consciousness and self-determination. It does not refer to created or uncreated. God is the Prototype of personhood and humans were created in his image. You wrote, "Allah(swt) may choose to interact with creation anyway He deems fit. Afterall, He is the Creator of time, space, matter and life. As the Creator, Allah(swt) is seperate from creation: timeless, ageless, tireless. " In my understanding, this would imply personhood.

Regarding God's interaction with humanity via the agency of Gabriel, does God Himself have any direct interaction with humanity apart from general providence, or is all of his specific interaction with humanity through angels?

Warmly,

Rick

 

From DavidF #31

Hi. I'm new to this discussion, but I feel that there are many comments about Judaism that I would like to correct. Here it is from a former yeshiva student who also has a background in critical scholarship:

Aaron's original question is a bit too detailed to answer in the way that it is formulated. The problem is that Jewish belief is communicated either in Hebrew or in translation from Hebrew. If you literally translate "Holy Spirit" back into Hebrew, it comes out as "Ruah HaQodesh". Here the problem starts. When Jews say Ruah HaQodesh, they may mean something very different from what a Christian means when they say "Holy Spirit". I do not know much about Christiatinity, but I have heard some Christian friends refer to the Holy Spirit as the spirit that impregnated Mary. Well, Jews do not believe that Spirits impregnate women: men do. A Pentecostal friend referred to the Holy Spirit as the spirit that makes people speak in toungues. Well, most Jews never hear of speaking in toungues and, i.e., it just is not part of the Jewish spiritual culture. The upshot is that when a Jews says "Ruah HaQodesh", he or she is probably talking about something very different from "Holy Spirit". As you read this paragraph, if you get the idea that Jews think about spirits in terms of what they do, not what they are, you are right. Well, what do Jews mean when they say Ruach HaQodesh? That might vary depending upon context. When speaking of a prophet, it means the spirit of G-d that is giving them prophecy. When speaking of a psalmist or a writer of the wisdom literature, it is the divine inspiration that motivated their holy writing. When a sage is interpreting the Holy Law, story, or idea from the Torah, it is the spirit of G-d that inspires him. However, as Maimonides pointed out, the inspiration of prophecy is qualitatively different from the inspiration of interpreting Law, a prophet is not even permitted to use the spirit that inspires prophesy to interpret the Law: the former is supernatural and the latter is rational. In modern Jewish thinking (i.e. the last two centuries) Hasidim and other ultra-Orthodox segments apply the term to the pronouncements, advice, legal decisions, and interpretations of hasidic Rebbes or masters or Gedolim ("great sages"). The term more often used for the latter is "daat Torah," but the concept is the same. Others, Mitnagdim (opponents of Hasidism) and "modern" Orthodox and other traditional segments of Judaism feel that this is a mistaken interpretation of Ruach HaQodesh, Daat Torah, and the function and role of rabbis and sages.

I hope that this clarifies Jewish thinking and did not create more confusion. So, with this in the background, you can understand how I address this specific questions:

1) The source of Ruach HaQodesh? G-d, of course. G-d is the source of everyting and the destination of everything.

2) The relationship to the Creator God? The same relationship as everything has to the Creator God. There is only one God, the Creator God.

3) I have addressed its function. Ultimately, the function of everything is to carry out the will of the Creator. The only point of discussion can be what that will is, how to logically explain the idea that the infinite can have will, etc.

Be healthy and peace to the world.

DF

 

From Aaron 5-8 #33

Mohamed

Greetings and peace

Once again, I do greatly appreciate the input in all of these interesting responses.

For example, from the Islamic position, this response came from from Penpal 4-27-02 #4

‘Angels are not Holy Spirit in Islam

Quran

17:85
They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"’

Then this response came from Abrahamite 4-29-02 #11

‘In Judaism, the Holy Spirit is known as Schechina (the Divine Presence, also referred to as the Indwelling Presence).’

Now with respect to the Scriptures—the Holy Spirit, as I believe that it is understood in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, has an omnipresent characteristic.

This is especially evident in Numbers 11: 24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of Jehovah: and he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the Tent. 25And Jehovah came down in the cloud, and spoke unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did so no more. 26But there remained two men in the camp, the name of the one was El-dad, and the name of the other Me-dad: and the Spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but had not gone out unto the Tent; and they prophesied in the camp. 27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, El-dad and Me-dad do prophesy in the camp. 28And Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses, one of his chosen men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, are you jealous for my sake? I would that all Jehovah’s people were prophets, that Jehovah would put his Spirit upon them!" (RSAV-1901) This is describing the very same Holy Spirit that God liberally distributed to His people on the Day of Pentecost following Christ’s resurrection. (See Acts.2)

The same Holy Spirit that King David was preying for in Psalm 51: "1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to your lovingkindness: According to the multitude of your tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. 3For I know my transgressions; And my sin is ever before me. 4Against you, you only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in your sight; That you may be justified when you speak, And be clear when you Judge. 5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. 6Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts; And in the hidden part you will make me to know wisdom. 7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8Make me to hear joy and gladness, That the bones which you have broken may rejoice. 9Hide your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. 10Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from your presence; And take not your Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of your salvation; And uphold me with a willing spirit. 13Then will I teach transgressors your ways; And sinners shall be converted unto you." (RASV-1901) I give testimony that these words are true words of liberation for all who can trust in God’s mercy and simply accept it.

I am not absolutely certain of this, but I do not recall that either angels nor arch-angels were ever given to this level of Divine Omnipresent Power by God.

I do thank you for your patience.

God’s mercy is always near!

Aaron

 

From Aasim #34

Peace to all,

Rick,

Yes, I think we find ourselves in sticky situations when using words like "person" or "image" when referring to God.

My understanding is that Islam supports no "image" of Allah(swt), this is why iconography or any representation of God is strictly forbidden in Islamic art.

Also, we do not see God as a prototype for humanity. Rather, we were created as He desired us to be, and we reflect in no way an image or likeness of Allah(swt). This would be like comparing ourselves to God, a form of self-worship according to Islam.

Muslims believe we are guided through life by our inner moral compass, or fitrah. Fitrah is the natural inclination to worship Allah(swt) alone and to be obedient to His Will. It is our responsibility to be mindful of our fitrah and to nourish and strengthen it with prayer and good deeds.

Christians often speak of being moved by the Holy Spirit. As I understand it, as a Muslim, I am pretty much on my own. Life is a test in the fullest sense, and if I were somehow Divinely helped along in this test...well, I don't think it would be much of a test!

I know to Christians this may sound cold and stoic. But it really isn't. We believe that Allah(swt) is ever present and accounts our every thought and deed. Allah(swt) cares for us and provides for us and we rely upon His bounty. But the burden and blessing of the fitrah is upon us. From the time of creation, we accepted this burden when no other member of creation would. This is when we accepted our "personhood" and the burden that comes with it.

Personally, I do not expect Allah(swt) to "move" me by the Holy Spirit. I pray in repentance and I pray in adoration of Allah(swt). I know He hears my supplications and is mindful of my life and my deeds. I have faith in His Mercy and Benevolence.

You asked,

...does God Himself have any direct interaction with humanity apart from general providence...

Again, as far as I understand it, there are two opinions held among Muslims concerning this:

1) All Revelation or inspiration of anykind has come to an end in Muhammad(saw). To believe otherwise would be to question the finality of Muhammad's(saw) prophethood.

2) All Revelation has come to an end in Muhammad(saw). However, we may still be Divinely inspired and guided to new thoughts or understandings of Quranic interpretation and Islamic Law. Of course, this inspiration is reserved for those Muslims who would be considered saintly and excellent in faith.

in faith,

Aasim

 

<****>

 

From Lewieke #35

"Fitrah is the natural inclination to worship Allah(swt) alone"

I'm afraid our natural inclination is towards polytheism. Hence the worship of saints in the catholic chuch and, yes, also the collecting of relics of Muhammad (coat, hairs from his beerd, teeth, etc.).

 

From Rick #36

Aasim,

This thread is getting a number of different branches, but that's OK with me.

Icons: In Eastern Orthodoxy icons of God the Father and the Holy Spirit (except as a dove) are prohibited for the same reason they are prohibited in Islam and Judaism. Icons of Christ are allowed because he was human. If you had had a camera during the first century, you could have taken a picture of him, right? Icons are pictures of Christ.

God as a prototype: By this I am refering to Genesis 1:26 where it says that God created us in his image. Of course, this doesn't mean that we look like God or that God possesses all of humanities limitations. Rather, it means that, like God, we have a "personhood" (read: self-consciousness and self-determination), free will, moral capacity, creative ability, and dominion. We have these qualities in extremely limited proportion to God, but they do separate us from the animals, plants, rocks, etc.

I'm not sure I see the link between this and self-worship. Obviously, if we re-create God in our image that would be self-worship, but that is not what Christians mean by being made in the image of God. We don't look to ourselves to understand God, we look to God to understand ourselves.

You wrote, "Fitrah is the natural inclination to worship Allah(swt) alone and to be obedient to His Will." Christians believe that our natural, selfish inclination is to go away from God and disobey him. When you have children (insha'allah) you will see that you don't have to teach them to be bad - they do that quite naturally!

You wrote, "As I understand it, as a Muslim, I am pretty much on my own. Life is a test in the fullest sense, and if I were somehow Divinely helped along in this test...well, I don't think it would be much of a test!"

I have to confess that this doesn't sound very inviting or loving on God's part. I don't think the Bible presents life so much as a test, but rather as an opportunity. During life we have the opportunity to be reconciled to God, to be healed of the brokenness caused by sin, and the opportunity to worship him and know him in faith. Why would God need to test us? What's the point? What's the standard of pass or fail?

You wrote, "From the time of creation, we accepted this burden when no other member of creation would. This is when we accepted our "personhood" and the burden that comes with it."

Again, I don't see life and personhood as a burden, but rather a gift. "My yoke is easy, my burden is light." Religion is a heavy burden, relationship isn't.

You wrote, "You asked,

...does God Himself have any direct interaction with humanity apart from general providence...

Again, as far as I understand it, there are two opinions held among Muslims concerning this:" [snip]

Sounds like a very lonely universe. Sorry!

Warmly,

Rick

 

From Musa #38

As a former Christian I can say this...

I have never heard the word personhood.

To say God is the Prototype of a word some Christian (so called follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ) made up, is close to blasphamy.

Making statements about God without knowledge is strictly forbidden and will be punished severely.

Asking useless questions about the Creator is also forbidden. All you can do is have faith that there is a God, and He created man in the image that you see man. No man has ever seen God. No man can say what God looks like. The Bible stats that God made man in His image, and then it turns around and says no man has ever seen God's image. Why continue supporting the former?

Why reject the Quran? The only way you will find answers to these silly questions, is to be sincere towards the Almighty and worship Him alone. He will increase your intelligence if you do these simple things.

 

From Peregrin #40

Musa's:

Making statements about God without knowledge is strictly forbidden and will be punished severely.

Asking useless questions about the Creator is also forbidden.

Wow. This sure does bring up memory of some sore spots in religious history.

Who defines what is "useless"? Who defines what is "forbidden"? Who has the right to declare someone should be "severely punished" for some act of alleged heresy?

I don't buy this. It sounds like a forumla for unleashing the Thought Police, or a new Inquisition.

IMO Jesus set the right example. He perservered in the face of adverse circumstances without ever "punishing" anyone. Even as Jesus perservered, so we should also try our best to simply counter what we believe are heresies with right information. We should also pray for those who we believe are committing heresies. But to slip into a new age of inflicting "severe punishment" does not sound like an exercise in increasing our intelligence. No, that cannot be the right way to go.

Musa may believe the Quran has all the answers. However, people of other faiths are not so persuaded. Let us say instead we need to practice mutual tolerance of those we think are less wise than we think we are are - even as we share the truths we believe in.

 

From Mohamed #41

Dear Aasim,
Not all revelation Aasim! It's only the revelation of prophecy that has ended by Prophet Muhammad pbuh according to Islam. Nonetheless, other kinds of revelations like the "vision" could always be experienced, not necessarily by "saints". Do we have Muslim Saints? :-))

Dear Aaron,
Re: Angels are not Holy Spirit in Islam
Quran
17:85
They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"’
The "spirit" in this verse means the soul not the Holy Spirit.

Yours,

Mohamed Mosaad

 

From Aasim #42

Peace to all,

Rick & Shy_gurl,

Actually, since becomming Muslim, the universe has become all the more beautiful to me. I actually feel closer to Allah(swt) and am clear about my purpose in this life: to serve and worship Allah(swt), alone.

Rick, I am wondering what you meant by: Religion is a heavy burden, relationship isn't.

Islam is not a burden. My faith in Allah(swt) is not a burden. The teachings of the Quran and Hadith are certainly not burdens.

But the lives we live are full of hardships and burdens. Islam would consider these as a test of our faith, to persevere in the face of suffering.

You also asked: Why would God need to test us? What's the point? What's the standard of pass or fail?

Anyone may profess faith. But to actually live it? How can one's faith be truely known if it is not tested?

Islam offers Muslims peace. We believe that people are inherently good. But as our lives progress beyond the womb, we are tested, and many times we fail these tests. This is why it is imperitive for a Muslim to pray and seek God, live the five pillars to the fullest, and to earnestly follow the example of Prophet Muhammad(saw).

Peregrin, you wrote: IMO Jesus set the right example. He perservered in the face of adverse circumstances without ever "punishing" anyone.

While I respect your opinion, I would have to say this: Jesus(pbuh) did not have to rule over a new and growing nation. He never had to fight wars to protect his people. He never governed and never had to administer the full extent of the law. He never had a wife and a household to provide for.

Instead, Christ's own Apostles disobeyed him, questioned him, denied him and betrayed him.

In my own estimation, Muhammad(saw) was the greatest man and Prophet who ever graced the face of Creation.

in faith,

Aasim

 

From Aasim #43

Assalamu aleikom,

Brother Mohamed,

Thank you for the clarification regarding the nature of revelation. I am always appreciative of help in better understanding our faith.

This is why I often begin by saying: "As far as I understand..." :)

I have read that some Imams would even consider "visions" as works of dark jinn. Can we trust that dreams and visions can be truely from Allah(swt)?

Also, yes, I believe I misused the word "saint". What I understood from my reading was that inspiration or visions were often reserved for those who are strongest in faith.

Perhaps we can begin a new thread to discuss the nature of Revelation?

in faith,

Aasim

PS In regards to my last post:

In my own estimation, Muhammad(saw) was the greatest man and Prophet who ever graced the face of Creation.

I know it is bad manners to compare Prophets, and I apologise. I have a great love for the Prophet(saw) and at times I can be a bit defensive.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone.

-Aasim

 

From Peregrin #44

Aasim's

Peregrin, you wrote: IMO Jesus set the right example. He perservered in the face of adverse circumstances without ever "punishing" anyone.

While I respect your opinion, I would have to say this: Jesus(pbuh) did not have to rule over a new and growing nation. He never had to fight wars to protect his people. He never governed and never had to administer the full extent of the law. He never had a wife and a household to provide for.

Instead, Christ's own Apostles disobeyed him, questioned him, denied him and betrayed him.

Aasim:

IMO Jesus intended Christianity to be a spiritual movement, not a political one (contrary to its adaptation as such by the Roman Empire). As Jesus taught, his movement - properly understood - can adapt to just about any political climate and change it for the better from the inside out. The best means of helping others "submit" to God is by inspiration, not by force of arms.

As for Jesus' deciples, only Judas really betrayed Jesus, and he had such regrets he hung himself for the trouble. After Jesus' assension, Peter and the others made good on their initial weaknesses. They went on to distinguish themselves for their devotion to Jesus' message. With the exception of John (who was banished), the remaining eleven are believed to have also died or sacrificed themselves for their cause.

 

From Rick #45 5-9

Welcome back, Musa:

You wrote, "I have never heard the word personhood."

"Tripersonality is not tritheism; for, while there are three persons, there is but one essence." This is the heading that begins 20 pages of discussion on personhood, personality, and persons in the Holy Trinity in Strong's Theology. I'm using "person" in the theological sense and not in the common usage. "Personhood" refers to individuality - separateness. Islam agrees that God is separate/distinct from his creation, doesn't it?

You wrote, "To say God is the Prototype of a word some Christian (so called follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ) made up, is close to blasphamy."

I don't know what you mean that God is the Prototype of a word some Christian made up. Did I say something like that? I used the word "prototype" to refer to the Christian belief that God created humanity in His image. From the Islamic perspective, there are lots of Christian doctrines that are blasphemous - deity of Christ, crucifixion, etc. From a Christian perspective, there are lots of Islamic doctrines that are blasphemous - denial of Christ's deity, claiming that the Holy Spirit is an angel, etc. But for the sake of understanding each other, it usually isn't wise to use such strong language. We're not here to call each other heretics, but to understand.

You wrote, "Making statements about God without knowledge is strictly forbidden and will be punished severely."

If you're going to make such bold statements, it is best to back it up with some quotes. First, what statements about God were made without knowledge? Second, who said doing so is strictly forbidden and will be punished severely?

You wrote, "Asking useless questions about the Creator is also forbidden. " What were the useless questions? Who said they are forbidden? Come on, Musa. Maybe if you spent some more time asking questions and less time assuming you had all the answers you would actually learn something.

You wrote, "All you can do is have faith that there is a God, and He created man in the image that you see man. No man has ever seen God. No man can say what God looks like." No one disagrees with this. Musa, do you read our posts before you comment?

You wrote, "The Bible stats that God made man in His image, and then it turns around and says no man has ever seen God's image. Why continue supporting the former?" Where does the Bible say that we never saw his image? It says no man has ever seen God. If I send you a picture of my son, you could see the "image" or "likeness" of me in my son while never seeing me.

You wrote, "The only way you will find answers to these silly questions, is to be sincere towards the Almighty and worship Him alone. He will increase your intelligence if you do these simple things."

Thank you,

Rick

 

From Rick #47

Hello Aasim,